Permanent, Visible Identification?

Perhaps, tattooing the gums as the racing TB's industry does? It fades with time too, but it is an individual ID. I do not know how is done.

marisela

A lip tattoo is possible for Arabians in Colorado, but the horse has to have racing permits, etc. Better that nothing I suppose. Any other suggestions?

I would love to see AHA require freeze banding as part of registration although I would like to see them just use the horses regular reistration numbers- no symbols. I also have Standardbreds and it is very easy too identify off their freezebrand- just type the numbers into the USTA's website and all the horses info comes right up.

Forgot to mention that my grey mare is 1/2 Arab, 1/2 AQHA so a racing permit is probably not possible.

How could we get AHA to sponsor/approve a standardized branding system? Politics? Letter writing campaign? The BLM freeze brands their mustangs, but they use their own system, not Kyro Kinetics. What does anyone think about the suggestion of using her registration number in regular numbers and letters??

I always wondered why horses are not tattooed with there registration number. When I was a kid I remember see someone tattooing there puppies ears with a tool that had interchangeable letters and numbers. They took the tool and pressed the pattern into the inside part of the puppies ear. Then they took tattoo ink and pressed it into the "wound". And vowalla, perminent ID. It was fast and ez. You can do it yourself and cheep.

Kaseyn is freeze branded by my choice. Many think he is a morgan because of it, but no a purebred arabian. No pain and he stood the whole three minutes without budging during his branding exhibition.

cheryle

Hi List

I know this has been asked before, but......

What is or can be done to identify our horses permanently and visibly? I'm asking this again in light of the recently rescued herd of solid black/no markings horses in north Texas and all other rescued horses that can not be identified, even the bay mare on the rescue & rehoming thread on this forum. Also, I recently bought a grey mare that will eventually be solid white and has only one white fetlock.


I don't think microchipping is necessarily the best solution because not every organization has a scanner, and even then, to scan for which company's chip?

Blood typing/DNA also has its limits because apparently it can only be used to determine parentage or eliminate incorrect parentage. It would be so much better if DNA could be just thrown into the system and Volia! a match just pops up (like on the TV crime shows).


Sooo that leaves branding.

I personally wish that somehow the system of freeze branding with the registration number could be reinstated. I have checked with a man here in Colorado that the brand inspector recommended. Basically he said that he has a permit on a Colorado-registered brand that goes on the hip and/or shoulder but does not identify the horse. There is a record of these horses, but it isn't readily available to the public. He also said that he has a set ot 2 inch high (regular) numbers that he could freeze brand my mare with up under her mane. He also said that he was personally acquainted with the inventor of the marking system used by Kyro Kinetics, and would see what he could find out.

I read recently that Sheila Varian plans to brand her horses with her trademark V on the hip. Most likely any horses from her farm could be identified from farm records.

I have tried to contact Kyro Kinetics and had no response whatsoever.

Suggestions? Experiences?

Kryo Kinetics is notorious for not responding. They have gone for years not replying to phone calls or email messages. It's their business model, evidently. To be perfectly honest, getting someone to make custom freeze brands just isn't THAT hard and golly gee, if you were to use the exact same system as Kryo Kinetics, take photos, send them in to the registry and get new papers reflecting the brand, I doubt they would really give a rat's patootie.

At least that's how I feel about it these days. Then it's simply a matter of shaving them to the skin, getting the liquid nitrogen, rubbing alcohol and chemical and/or physical restraint. And a stopwatch.

But every time this comes up, I get irritated with Kryo Kinetics all over again. The non-responsiveness. The high cost. The lock on the market for their Alpha Angle system. Bah.

As Sheila Varian has her own brand, does it get noted on the horses registration papers? I would presume so, but I certainly don't know.

I pulled this off of the registry site:

Section IIII: Markings

• The reverse side of the application provides a section to record the markings for your horse. Please draw any white markings present on the face and legs. The hoof color should also be indicated, as well as any brands, tattoos or body markings. Be sure to look for pink skin and check the "pink skin" boxes if your horse is grey.

Mind you, there are states where you can or have to register your brand(s). Mine is not one of them. As long as it's noted on the registration papers, I don't think there's a whole lot the $&#(wits at Kryo Kinetics can really DO if you just 'happen' to pay for your own angle irons and do it yourself.

http://www.arabianhorses.org/registration/images/FreezeMark.jpg

Well, remember that back in the day, AHA supported a very tight rule regarding verification of the horse to assure that the horse and freezemark matched. Original papers had to be presented to the tech (no copies), and markings were carefully matched between the horse and its registration. The freezemark became an 'official' part of the horse's documentation - official and in many cases critical!

Without buy-in from AHA, which would have to include their standing behind the ID, we're really not much better off than we are now. That's not to say it's impossible to make errors - and I've seen them. Without doing a DNA on two solid horses, there isn't a reliable way to distinguish one from the other, and I recall at least one such case where a mare was marked, later re-identified as a different horse, mark cancelled, and THEN additional testing showed that the original mark was in fact correct.

So any solution would have to address functionality: what purpose do we wish to achieve? Permanent, reliable, specific identification of a particular horse would be ideal, but without that buy-in it may not be possible. For those states lacking brand registration/brand inspection protocols, there is no mechanism in place to support more localized (or non-breed-specific) id. That doesn't mean it can't be done, just that the effort involved to accomplish it will be substantial, and probably pretty frustrating.

Well, remember that back in the day, AHA supported a very tight rule regarding verification of the horse to assure that the horse and freezemark matched. Original papers had to be presented to the tech (no copies), and markings were carefully matched between the horse and its registration. The freezemark became an 'official' part of the horse's documentation - official and in many cases critical!

Without buy-in from AHA, which would have to include their standing behind the ID, we're really not much better off than we are now. That's not to say it's impossible to make errors - and I've seen them. Without doing a DNA on two solid horses, there isn't a reliable way to distinguish one from the other, and I recall at least one such case where a mare was marked, later re-identified as a different horse, mark cancelled, and THEN additional testing showed that the original mark was in fact correct.

So any solution would have to address functionality: what purpose do we wish to achieve? Permanent, reliable, specific identification of a particular horse would be ideal, but without that buy-in it may not be possible. For those states lacking brand registration/brand inspection protocols, there is no mechanism in place to support more localized (or non-breed-specific) id. That doesn't mean it can't be done, just that the effort involved to accomplish it will be substantial, and probably pretty frustrating.

I'm the owner, I have the original papers. I'm perfectly capable of branding a horse. If I do so, and then send the papers in with photos of the brand, etc. I don't see that they have any choice but to re-issue the papers with the brand noted.

If they only want Kryo Kinetics to freeze brand, then Kryo Kinetics should return phone calls and emails. They provide lousy customer service and they're expensive ($135/horse PLUS mileage - and they don't cover large swaths of the U.S.)

As it happens, anyone can purchase custom freeze brand irons if they want to do it themselves. There's no rule that I can find that says the owner of a registered Arabian can't have the horse branded if they so desire. Of course you have to pony up money for the updated papers. Sounds as though the registry needs all the money it can get from whatever source it can get it. They're not in a position to be picky.

It would be a heck of a lot nicer if the registry could and would get behind freeze marks again. But I think they have too many other concerns. Ditto for the breed clubs and shows. It would be nice, but again, it's costly and time-consuming to arrange it and advertise its availability. Someone has to pay the technician (presuming you can get one) regardless of how many people take advantage of the service.

All in all, it's very annoying.

I don't disagree - my point was in defining what we would like to see accomplished by permanent, visible marking and then recognizing that the ideal, under the current circumstances, could be a daunting task. Sure, a generic hot or cold brand would serve to 'stamp' your horse - for your benefit. But I'm considering the bigger picture, where horses may well move, over time, from your ownership and possibly through various hands. Papers may get lost or switched (far too frequent when solid-colored horses are involved - Ask Diane Acox about that one), and identification using a generic brand is not especially helpful, especially where there is no universal brand registration facility. It surely would help if DS supported a 'brand/no brand' check in the horse search, but that's wishful thinking.
KK is certainly a frustrating organization - absolutely no debate on that one! But as long as they're the only game in town, they can get away with whatever good or bad business practices they have, I had hoped that they'd have made more progress since evidently trying to rebuild their market, but even though Donna has been trying I doubt that she has the resources or the time to bring that much influence to bear. At one time, I looked into becoming a tech and the travel demands were totally prohibitive unless I were prepared to give up horse ownership and devote full time to marking. Not happening.

Personally, I prefer the concept of a unique freeze brand to a microchip (I like the visibility), but the international model is clearly moving to a microchip system. Passport systems in Europe (every single horse in Europe has a passport from birth-- even grade horses) are utilizing microchipping. FEI competition horses are already included in that system. Many breeders in the open sport horse world want reliable and performance tracking of offspring, but the current USEF system fails due to the tendency for horses to be renamed and re-registered with a different USEF # than the one it started with. In order to be better able to market their horses to buyers and to compete with the European breeders, there are efforts to work towards adopting the UELN system with microchipping here in the US.

http://www.ueln.net/

FWIW, WAHO is an affiliate of the UELN with all the Euro and many other international studbooks in compliance. So we can try to reinvent the wheel and come up with a hodge podge of identification and tracking systems in the USA, OR we can work to get AHA to adopt the UELN matched with microchipping. Microchipping is an adjunct to the UELN (the microchip number is different from the UELN, but is matched in the database to that UELN), but is already the "standard" for matching the horse to it's UELN.


Advocating for the UELN offers AHA an opportunity to strenghten relationships with the international Arabian horse community AND to partner with other USEF breed and discipline groups that would also benefit from wide adoption of the UELN.

As for rescue and rehab, when micro-chipping was first introduced in companion animals, shelters and vet clinics took a while to develop their protocols, but all reputable shelters and vets now routinely scan for chips. If microchipping becomes standard in the US, rescues and equine vets will learn to incorporate scans into their protocols. Developing a database of UELN's with the associated microchip number would facilitate the potential to develop a database to record horses whose breeder or previous owner wishes to be contacted if the horse ends up in a rescue situation or at a kill auction. Having a universal system that can encompass horses across many breed registries would faciliate a more centralized database in contrast to a variety of ID methodologies making it difficult to establish an effective system for tracking back. This is too big of a concern to be managed in tiny niches, IMHO.

Right on, Dawn! Now if there were only a way to put some kind of anti-maverick-don't-believe-in-cooperation solution into our drinking water.....

I don't have an issue with microchips, I have horses that are microchipped. But they are not visible and they have been known to move, even when an experienced vet places it. I doubt everybody tests their microchip readers regularly, particularly when they're rushed (auction houses, etc.).

As I mentioned, custom-made angle irons aren't prohibitively expensive and anybody can follow the (alpha angle) system. I know a blacksmith who would probably make them for me. Only four different ones are needed.

I don't know or care who owns Kryo Kinetics now as their banner should read: New management! Same lousy service!

Sure would be a lot nicer if they would simply answer people's queries and provide the service as advertised. But maybe they just don't need the money.

Yes, a hodge-podge of different brands may be annoying, but think of the people who take their time and ever-so-carefully draw in the markings on their wildly marked foals - only to not have it show up on their registration papers. I think there was a thread about it last year. Didn't the breeder send along photos, too?

*scratches head*

I would love to see AHA require freeze banding as part of registration although I would like to see them just use the horses regular reistration numbers- no symbols.

The nice thing about the "alpha angle" symbols is that they cannot be altered, whereas a branded "3" could be overbranded into an "8" for example. Less opportunity for fraud.

I had high hopes for the resurrected Kryo Kinetics, but I'm not seeing as much activity from them now as I was a couple years ago when the company (finally!) changed hands.

Carol, I am seeing an increasing awareness, interest, and effort in pushing the USEF to adopt the UELN from the open sport horse breeding community as well as from other segments of the horse industry. The formation of the North American Sport Horse Association is driven in large part towards pushing for accurate performance tracking tied to pedigrees in the USEF sport disciplines with a database that is compatable with those in Europe via the UELN. The more registries and discipline organizations and any affiliate groups working on their behalf (like the NASHA) that push for adoption of the UELN, the better the chance for success. There are multiple ways in which adoption of the UELN would benefit various segments of the AHA membership --and the organization itself. International buyers/sellers,breeders of horses that compete in rated competitions outside of AHA, rescue/rehab, AHA's marketing analysis (tracking all those purebred and HA horses that do not compete in AHA's venues would provide valuable data for AHA) --all would find value if AHA and USEF adopted the UELN system with microchipping.

The UELN is an issue that can serve the needs of many disparate groups -- registries like AHA and AQHA and many segments of their membership, discipline organizations (like USDF, AERC, USHJA, USEA), the rescue and rehab community, law enforcement, etc. But there is entrenched institutional resistance AND no culture of cooperation among these groups. When I tried to raise this issue in an AHA club, my suggestion got totally stripped of the BIG picture and twisted into an idea to maintain a database within that club strictly for the benefit of the club's membership. "Keep it in the clubhouse" thinking is firmly entrenched in the AHA culture, but for the benefit of the breed, sometimes problems and solutions are bigger than just "us" and if we can work together with other groups that share our interests. I'm willing to keep fighting for this idea from within AHA and from other avenues (USDF, USEF) of involvement. I have no illusions about the challenges of pursuing this, but I think it is worthwhile to fight for it. There are signs that momentum is growing. :-)

That's all well and good, but it doesn't serve as an answer for those who want a form of visible identification, with its implied deterrence too.

Re: freeze marks. The registry doesn't ask for any information about the technician, just that the owner sign the form attesting that the information is correct to the best of their knowledge and to enter the symbols, note which side of the neck. They very helpfully provide what the symbol looks like for a registered Arabian.

In the case of a brand, take photos and submit them. The paperwork will be reissued for free. You have to submit your original registration papers, of course.

Do none of the technicians advertise and set up space at any of the bigger shows (QH, Apps, big local show, arab shows)? You would think they would want to be where people and horses gather. If it's known that someone will be there, you would think that it would at least make it worth their while. At this point, maybe the company's reputation proceeds them and no one bothers. (Mere speculation on my part. I do not know if this is the case.)

I don't have an issue with microchips, I have horses that are microchipped. But they are not visible and they have been known to move, even when an experienced vet places it. I doubt everybody tests their microchip readers regularly, particularly when they're rushed (auction houses, etc.).

Yes, a hodge-podge of different brands may be annoying, but think of the people who take their time and ever-so-carefully draw in the markings on their wildly marked foals - only to not have it show up on their registration papers. I think there was a thread about it last year. Didn't the breeder send along photos, too?

*scratches head*

I actually prefer a visible ID to a microchip, and in my ideal world an angled freeze brand mark would BE the standard. I used to have my dogs tatooed when they were spayed/neutered, but that service is no longer offered. I have hoped to get my horses freeze branded by KK, but haven't due to the same kinds of issues that others have encountered. Whatever my person preferences for visible ID's, I also recognize that due to a variety of factors, microchipping (or other RFID) is becoming the norm in animal identification in both agricultural and companion animal contexts around the world.
Betamax was a superior format to VHS, but VHS became the standard until technology supplanted it with a new format. I think that is what we are facing in terms of what system has the best chance of a more universal adoption.

Note that the UELN (Universal Equine Life Number) is theoretical compatable with any identification system;. Currently when the UELN is tied to a horse passport, microchipping is the standard ID marker used. If USEF is persuaded to adopt the UELN, compatability with Europe would favor microchipping as the standard ID format. I don't think it makes sense to tie UELN's of Arabians to a different ID format than what will be utilized for other breeds.

FWIW, I don't think that most kill auctions are paying much attention to checking freeze brands. The benefit of a UELN system verified by microchipping means that auctions --or middlemen-- could profit from scanning for chips to see if any horses match a database for horses that have someone (breeder/previous owner) who has indicated that they woulod purchase that horse out of a kill pen. The idea is to work to create an infrastructure that makes it simple to do and provides incentives for auction houses to scan horses and for that system to be standardized for ALL breeds. The freeze-branding industry has failed to assert itself as a better overall solution than the microchip lobby has. I may find that disappointing, but it is reality. Sometimes you have to work with the tools that are available.

From what I understand with the Standardbreds- the tech. takes a hair sample and sends it in to the registry for DNA (so they are essen. DNA'ed when they are freezebranded).

I would love to see AHA require freeze banding as part of registration

what about people who do not want to do this to their horses?

Remember that the techs USED to be AHA-personnel, and they were meticulous regarding horse identification. OK, meticulous as far as it ever went. I still believe that roaning, skunk tails, etc associated with rabicano horses SHOULD be included in markings, since they are so distinctive. It would be especially useful since unless I'm totally out of my mind, the 'roan' acceptable color is actually rabicano, but when you can't even get wild white recorded properly, who would be so foolish as to believe that other highly-distinguishable markings/coloring would be properly recorded.

A big help would be if AHA would fix their data base to start showing markings again, start with that then lets talk about other things....I hate be mean but if they can't get that right......I question what they can do about other records. And its been a while and its been reported to them many times, it is still broken (at least for me and some others)

I'd like to see micro chips and then have it be required by law that any horse at any shelter, rescue or meat plant be scanned and the punishments for not doing so should be pretty harsh. Most people may not want to mark up their horse, though I would...many won't.

A big help would be if AHA would fix their data base to start showing markings again, start with that then lets talk about other things....I hate be mean but if they can't get that right......I question what they can do about other records. And its been a while and its been reported to them many times, it is still broken (at least for me and some others)

I'd like to see micro chips and then have it be required by law that any horse at any shelter, rescue or meat plant be scanned and the punishments for not doing so should be pretty harsh. Most people may not want to mark up their horse, though I would...many won't.

Markings graphics for purebreds are back up on Data Source. I am one of the people who griped at them about it, too. Wish they displayed the graphics of HAs as well, though. It sure would help when trying to identify horses at auctions or rescues.

I'd still be reluctant to microchip my horses. Though I hear that tumor growth hasn't been directly related to their use, I'm still not convinced they are 100% safe. And since the scanning technology is not yet universal, it's not a foolproof method of ID. Freeze branding is, to me, a better alternative.
We have freeze-branded most of our horses with our state of New Mexico-registered brand, and those horses' registration papers have been changed to reflect that.

Having a universal system that can encompass horses across many breed registries would faciliate a more centralized database in contrast to a variety of ID methodologies making it difficult to establish an effective system for tracking back. This is too big of a concern to be managed in tiny niches, IMHO.

As a matter of practicality and efficiency, in order to be useful the identification standard would have to be as widely applied and accepted as possible.

what about people who do not want to do this to their horses?

Whatever standard is adopted should be voluntary.

I don't have an issue with microchips, I have horses that are microchipped. But they are not visible and they have been known to move, even when an experienced vet places it. I doubt everybody tests their microchip readers regularly, particularly when they're rushed (auction houses, etc.).

Plus the groups that keep track of the microchip information do not necessarily stay in business forever - we had a dog scanned that showed up here, she was indeed chipped, but the # for the group was disconnected, and there was no further contact information to be found. Another dog we found was also chipped, and the lady who checked it out for us had to be transferred three times before getting to the correct group that had the owner's contact info.

To me, a VISIBLE brand on the horse's body is the best way to go --- if I saw an Arab at an auction with an apparent registration # OR the symbols representing it, I would rescue him or her in a heart beat - 'cuz SOMEBODY cared enough at some point to have that horse branded, and SOMEBODY's probably looking for him or her.

REQUIRING a VISIBLE brand of every horse registered would, IMO, be IDEAL ---- not only would it prevent people from "dumping culls" anonymously (although they COULD cut the brands out, as the kill buyers have been known to do on slaughter-rejects before dumping horses to starve), and ensure that every Arab that is registered has it's true identity remaining with it for a lifetime, regardless of where it ends up.

I think the idea of a brand of 2" registration number on the neck is a FABULOUS idea!!

what about people who do not want to do this to their horses?

Then their horses would not be registered. Most of the warmblood registries require branding of their horses upon passing inspection. I can't imagine anyone turning down a brand in order to get their horse registered.