Jump to content


Recent Topics


Recent Posts


Top 10 Members


Online friends

None of your friends are currently online

Recent Status Updates

  • Photo
      22 May
    Kailicia'sGirl

    We are very excited to announce the birth of a gorgeous Sol Debut filly this morning at 12:38 AM. "Tessa" is a beautiful, almost solid bay (bay to turn grey) filly out of our foundation mare -- FS Betty Grable (Padrons Psyche x Kj Kalayla (*Karadjordje)). Tessa will be retained by Penny Lane Arabians as a replacement for her incredible nineteen year-old dam. Sol Debut went two-for-two for fillies this year... Pictures coming soon of both Sol Debut fillies!

    Show comments (3)
  • Photo
      18 May
    Peter Mileo

    Constantene (*Ecaho x Amellia) is now scheduled to leave for his new home in Nevada Sunday, May 19th!!!

    Show comments (1)
  • Photo
      12 May
    SunStar

    Very excited that the second Crabbet magazine is out in the mail, time to get started on the next one!!

    Show comments (1)
View All Updates

Horse Health


- - - - -

Laheeb and I...


In addition to concentrating and perpetuating our Classic Polish program over the past 35+ years, we have made some strategic outcrosses that have been extremely successful. For example, in 1989 we bred our senior stallion, SPARK, to 22 select Fadjur daughters, and from that cross received such memorable horses as SS CLEOPATRA (two top 10s in Scottsdale 1990-1991, and sold to Europe in 1992 where she placed third in the Salon du Cheval World Cup), SS ALEXANDER (at least two top 10s in Scottsdale), SS ROZANNA, SS THUNDERBOLT, and others. This cross was so successful, SS CLEOPATRA and SS ALEXANDER helped SPARK win the Get of Sire class in Scottsdale 1990, which is significant when one considers Monogramm was also competing in that class. We made two other explosive outcrosses in the past few years, one to QR Excel in 2001 and one to Laheeb in 2007, which is the topic of this passage.

Posted Image Posted Image
Laheeb (Imperial Imdal x AK Latifa)

After researching the Arabian horse global marketplace, I decided that the horse named Laheeb was one of the more intriguing horses available; I say this not because of his looks, which is easy to do, but as a breeder, I say this because of his success in siring international winners both male and female.

After finding out that Laheeb was standing at Furioso Farms with my longtime friend, Raymond Mazzei, who does not need any introduction, I told him I was interested in Laheeb as an outcross on our Polish mares that were intensely linebred to Witraz. He said Laheeb was used in Poland very successfully and after he finished serving mares in the USA, he would be returning to Poland. After that, he would perhaps go to Egypt, and then possibly to Israel.

I figured it was time for me to visit my good old friend, Raymond, and look at Laheeb in person to see how I could best use him with our mares. I arrived to Furioso farms one sunny morning as the sun was just shining into the stalls, creating this ideal lighting for portraiture photo shooting as the horses hung out their heads to get a hold of that beautiful early California sun. I yelled out as I was walking around to see where Raymond might be. “Hey, where the ###### are you?” Just then, without seeing anyone, I heard a very sarcastic reply coming from the far end of the barn, “Where the ###### do you think I am? I am here in the stall working, unlike you!” I had not seen him in a long time, but knew he was okay and had not changed one bit, since everyone knows Raymand’s joking, sarcastic personality is one of the bonuses we get whenever we see him!

As I started to walk toward the sound, I was quickly glancing at all of the horses that had their heads out, as I said earlier, and just before the last stall in the isle way, I saw this extremely dry, small chiseled head that looked like a porcelain sculpture. I exclaimed, “Wow! Who is this gorgeous Egyptian mare with this extreme head?” Raymond’s answer was rather quick and firm, “That’s not a mare, that’s Laheeb!” That was my first sight of the horse, and, to this day, I remember it as though it were yesterday.

Later, when Raymond took Laheeb out of his stall, the horse made an instant, profound impression on me. I failed miserably at the old saying that “one is supposed to look at the horse from the hooves up.” I started on the wrong end when I instantly fell in love with the dryness and smallness of his head. While he did not have the biggest eyes, they were enormously expressive, wide and low set in the head. As with many Siglavi horses, he had a slight human eye, which added to his expression. Although many contemporary breeders and connoisseurs of the Arabian horse make a big deal out of this condition, it is done so erroneously without knowledge of the historical facts. According to Gladys Brown Edwards, the Bedouins valued the white around the eyes (human eyes). (By the way, another trait the Bedouins valued that modern breeders practically hate was the rye (side) tail carriage, which Laheeb did not have.) In addition, Laheeb had nearly perfect ears, large, paper-thin nostrils, and a perfectly square teacup muzzle with the deep mouth.

I eventually managed to pry myself away from his beautiful head and look at the rest of his body. I thought Laheeb represented combination of quality and elegance with an abundance of style. I think he was well over 15 hands tall. He had a good length and shape of neck, however, when compared to the Polish horse, I found his throatlatch to be slightly heavy. Like most Egyptian horses, his neck was set high, making it difficult to judge the prominence of his withers. Despite siring successful racehorses in Poland, his ribs did not appear well-sprung and his girth was not as deep as the Polish horses I am accustomed to seeing. While being tightly coupled, his haunches seemed lightly built, but nonetheless went nicely with the rest of the horse.

Next I looked at his legs. I had the impression that he had very clean legs with well defined tendons and sufficient flatness to its high quality dry, dense bone. I can go on for hours talking about what I saw in those few seconds, but that is not the purpose of this piece. In short, Laheeb had excellent legs with very pleasing proportions.

When Laheeb came out to be presented, he took my breath away with his Arabian type and presence—it was as though he took me back in time, as though I were watching an ancient painting come to life before my very eyes. As far as his movement is concerned, he was a very balanced mover with motion and lightness in both ends. I was happy to see this, because we refuse to compromise athletic ability in our breeding program that took over 30 years to fix. Just to close my impression of Laheeb, I watched him tease and breed mares with nothing more than a halter and leadline every time. He was obedient and very gentle while working in harmony with the very capable Raymond Mazzei—they made a wonderful team together.


After my visit with Raymond I made a commitment to breed a dozen or so mares to Laheeb, and when I got home started the painstaking process of deciding which mares to breed to this magnificent horse. There were many things to consider. Because the commute was 16 hours each way, I could not take the mares that had foals at their sides, nor could I take the mares that were going to have foals soon. After excluding the mares that were too old or crippled, the list got smaller and smaller. To make matters even more complicated, all of our mares were conceived, born, and raised in the pasture, with limited handling, and, well, you get the idea...

After considering all of the possibilities of which mares could be bred to Laheeb, we managed to select and breed around a dozen mares to him, resulting in seven pregnancies and five live foals. It is with all of the confidence in the world that I can say this was a successful endeavor, and I like all five horses for different reasons. Of course, because Laheeb is a homozygous grey, all of them are grey. And, like Laheeb, they all have exceptional temperaments, straight legs, plenty of motion, and presence. Four of them are of very good size, expected to mature at over 15.2H. Of the three colts, one is definitely a super star we named SS Laheebdar. He is out of one of the best, if not the best, black Spark daughter we have, named SS Raven (Spark x Lalechka by *Aladdinn out of *Ruta going back to Gazella II tail female line), also the dam of SS Velocity. We have already tried SS Laheebdar with certain mares as a test, and so far he looks as though he is going to earn himself a place in our program. The two fillies we got from Laheeb are also very pleasing (they are currently in foal to AJMAN MONISCIONE). They are slightly different in phenotype from one another but are very nice in their own way.

Here are some pictures of our Laheeb foals at various ages...


Posted Image Posted Image
SS Laheebdar Contemporary Pure Polish 2008 grey stallion (Laheeb x SS Raven by Spark). Shown here age 3 yrs. He is of the GAZELLA II tail female line.

Posted Image
SS Laheebim Contemporary Pure Polish 2008 grey stallion (Laheeb x SS Clove by SS Alexander by Spark). Shown here age 6 mos. He is of the GAZELLA II tail female line.

Posted Image
SS Sparks Laheeb Contemporary Pure Polish 2008 grey stallion (Laheeb x SS Crystal Spark by Spark). Shown here age 3 yrs. He is of the GAZELLA II tail female line.

Posted Image Posted Image
SS Certainlaheeb Contemporary Pure Polish 2008 grey mare (Laheeb x SS Certainlee by Spark). Shown here age 4 yrs. She is of the GAZELLA II tail female line.

Posted Image Posted Image
SS Laheeria Contemporary Pure Polish 2008 grey mare (Laheeb x SS Auroria by SS Miami Vice by Spark). Shown here age 4 mos. She is of the MLECHA tail female line.


So we ask you, now, what is your opinion about our outcross to Laheeb... what do you think? We invite your response.



Happy Holidays!!!

Mustafa


64 Comments

Sorry for all the incoming photos but since we are here to educate I figure photos are the best way. Nicole....so basically you mean arabian breed characteristics right then ? :) Lets see, width between the eyes, check. Higher jibbah, you do realize the jibbah is a bump between the eyes right? The dish you normally seen is below that area and is a dish, not a jibbah....a jibbah is actually a raised portion between the eyes. Not all arabians have it just not as all have the lower vertebrae or denser bone, or even shorter tail bone etc. However the jibbah is a breed trait. A dished face is also a breed trait which is called one of the tenets of arabian type. So is an arched tail and mitbah (ie connection to the neck which has a certain arch to it on arabians) . You may want to include arabian type studies in your conformation studies. A longer breedy face is fine with me too, and I try to see beauty in all arabians even the coarser individuals.......but I prefer to at least have some really good dryness if no dish or jibbah is present.

Arabians should also have very small fox like ears.........mine have that, though, I prefer like Mustafa's that the ears are closer set. You may confuse these tiny ears with pony ears :)

So just want to be clear, arabian breed characteristics remind you of mini ponies and welsh ponies. Got it :)

From AHA site: Jibbah:

Arabic word for the bulge in the forehead often seen in Arabian horses. At one time it was thought that such a bulge indicated a larger brain, but instead it indicates larger sinuses.



Here are some photos of the Paternal brothers Dantastik and Dyno (Dyno is his barn name) Gosh, you are right, I see miniature horse heads here..........................not refined, chiseled and dished (with a jibbah on Dyno, Dan is more straight in profile) faces. (Same 2 horses in all the photos)



Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image
One last photo for you Nicole, this is the same yearling with the big jibbah, this photo shows the cheek bones and width between the branches of his jowels. This is desirable for a horse to breathe well 'as well'. So the face is probably our last consideration in breathing well though I am sure a horse like Namusca could have faced issues depending on how her face conformed on the inside, rather than the outside . Hopefully if you study the tenets of arabian type you can somehow mix those in and allow at least a minor version of those when evaluating an arabian horse for conformation and head type :)

If you zoom into his branches (of his jowels) here you can see the width and the large cheek surface which is also desirable. Mustafa's horses have this too I noticed. This is a 15 month old photo so excuse his 'butt high' gawkiness.

Posted Image
Photo
Valiant Arabians
Feb 01 2012 08:44 AM

Sorry for all the incoming photos but since we are here to educate I figure photos are the best way. Nicole....so basically you mean arabian breed characteristics right then ? :) Lets see, width between the eyes, check. Higher jibbah, you do realize the jibbah is a bump between the eyes right? The dish you normally seen is below that area and is a dish, not a jibbah....a jibbah is actually a raised portion between the eyes. Not all arabians have it just not as all have the lower vertebrae or denser bone, or even shorter tail bone etc. However the jibbah is a breed trait. A dished face is also a breed trait which is called one of the tenets of arabian type. So is an arched tail and mitbah (ie connection to the neck which has a certain arch to it on arabians) . You may want to include arabian type studies in your conformation studies. A longer breedy face is fine with me too, and I try to see beauty in all arabians even the coarser individuals.......but I prefer to at least have some really good dryness if no dish or jibbah is present.

Arabians should also have very small fox like ears.........mine have that, though, I prefer like Mustafa's that the ears are closer set. You may confuse these tiny ears with pony ears :)

So just want to be clear, arabian breed characteristics remind you of mini ponies and welsh ponies. Got it :)

From AHA site: Jibbah:

Arabic word for the bulge in the forehead often seen in Arabian horses. At one time it was thought that such a bulge indicated a larger brain, but instead it indicates larger sinuses.



Here are some photos of the Paternal brothers Dantastik and Dyno (Dyno is his barn name) Gosh, you are right, I see miniature horse heads here..........................not refined, chiseled and dished (with a jibbah on Dyno, Dan is more straight in profile) faces. (Same 2 horses in all the photos)


I so love the heads of your horses, Heather. I've never liked the narrow faced Arabs that we seem to be seeing a lot of lately. Just love the width in the forehead and large eyes! That's how it's supposed to be. : ) Soooomeday you need to get a professional photographer out, some native halters, and have a FUN day of taking tons of conformation shots and headshots of all your horses. We see the same photos every time you post. I want to see MORE. : )
Thanks Ashley, this is Mustafa's thread but the reason I went with photos of my own is its safe to throw them under the bus without hurting anyone but me!! Thank you, I know you see the same ones, but at least they are only about 5months old!! I will get more and I would LOVE to have someone professional out. I talked to my daughter about even doing some modeling with it if I ever do this. I figure using my own horses is the best to illustrate my own points. Means I put my money where my big mouth is :D

I just wanted to use my horses instead of Mustafa's to educate about the shape of the face and I know Dyno is a bit extreme for some tastes but he is very heavily linebred so some extremes would be expected. Thank you Ashley!! Hope Nicole can see some reasons for the way the heads are the way they are. I want to say though I 100% respect the straighter faces and love them if they are also dry. i really do, in fact one of my first loves was a rescued Iwonka III mare who was very dry, huge eye cages like Dyno but the straight face, large nostrils on her too.

I have a beautiful dry faced, narrow faced mare....love her very much. But her face is my least favorite part (but her ears are AMAZINGly tippy and close together) Sometimes it is hard to get this large skull casing look I like and ears set close as it by nature causes the ears to be set farther. It is nice to see Mustafa's horses some of them, have the short wide head type yet the close ears .
Photo
Nicole&Reannon
Feb 01 2012 11:14 AM
LOL I think you are taking me a bit too literally Heather. I know what a Jibbah is, and I know that the welsh ponies and minis are displaying arabian characteristics. My point was, that your boys are more exaggerated than many arabs which is similar to the features of those breeds. You don't see many arabs with that width betweeen the eyes and shorter face, which is more common in the Welsh Ponies, who have arabian influence. Not saying there is anything WRONG with that, you asked me what i thought about the heads, and that was my thought! LOL
Oooh, I think I see Nicole......Here is what I got from your post to Mustafa originally, you were wondering if perhaps the dish below his horses eyes being a bit more extreme would inhibit breathing, then you posted that my colt had a head much like a welsh pony or Mini :D That is kind of my memory but I will go back and read. As for Welsh ponies......I adore them, beyond adore, love love them. This is not a bad thing for me but I wanted you to understand that the arabian jibbah/mitbah/short skull etc. is a breed characteristic not something we find bad. The show mini people have been after that look for a while and seem to be getting it quite well from those photos but maybe in those photos I am sure sure if that is a jibbah? I have no idea on minis. It looks like a jibbah....and maybe it is one but would be interesting to know.

My very very first love was a half arabian half welsh....so this is fine for me to see this in my breed!! :)

Here was your initial post Nicole, so was going off of this and trying to educate you about 1) Why the arabian head is shaped as you have described in this post (and are a bit concerned for) and 2) Why the arabian, despite the head being shaped this way is actually a very good, if not above average' breather'

Before I quote you let me list the reasons Jibbah=better sinus, large nostrils=large airway large area between jowels=great windpipe (Or whatever we want to call this, I may be saying the wrong word) and then the eyes to me being set out to the side also allow for better vision though this may be disputed, not sure on that one. Just because a horse lacks a big jibbah though does not mean they have bad sinus so don't want to elude to that

Here is your first post :)

Mustafa ~ I hope you don't take this the wrong way as it is not meant to be taken in a negative light, but I have been looking at a lot of the horses in your breeding program and notice quite a few of them have a substantial amount of narrowing in the nasal cavity after the jowl/cheek bone. It is obvious that you quite like the extreme profiles as some of your own mares and stallions have various extremes, and the stallions you are choosing for outcrosses are also known for being more extreme and so crossing them into your program will probably perpetuate it, which I assume is part of the goal? What I am curious about is, if you have ever had x rays done on any of your more extreme headed horses to make sure they don't have any issues within the nasal cavity, jaw bone or tooth formation? A lot of people would be weary of going to such extremes, and since many of your horses are heavily line bred, the trait would be expressed more and more each generation IF it was a dominant trait in sire and dam and being passed down. I'm wondering if there is, in your opinion, a head that is TOO extreme? Again, not meant to be an attack on your program as you have so many lovely horses and many are related to both of mine in many ways, so I definitely love many of your horses... but from a purely medical/health standpoint, I'm very curious about the skeletal structure of some of your horses and if you have done any studies to insure there are no genetic defects taking place in your more extreme horses that would be potentially compounded when bred.

All the best

Nicole
I have had the vet examine Dyno by the way, as I did note how short his head was when I got him and how tiny his muzzle....I became slightly concerned and had the vet open his mouth on his first exam and just be sure all was well in that sweet muzzle, all teeth are perfectly aligned. My vet did say that with any horse, especially one with a very delicate face, you want to check that there is not crowding. Like with people who have to wear braces. I don't have that in any horse so far, save one older mare who is slightly off but he assures me a good dentistry would cure it. Hope that helps with your concern on teeth as well.

Last thing, Nicole I did not breed the older mare I have to Dan as they are of the same program and lines and while normally I am fine with inbreeding with Pete McNeils supervision in this case I decided against it as the older mare already to me was very very tiny in the muzzle. While Dan is not as tiny in the muzzle I was actually worried that with the amount of inbreeding COI in that resultant foal I could be asking for issues on the jaw meeting at the incisors.

The mare in question is the one I said my vet says with dentistry will be just perfect but again, I hope this helps you to know MOST people are very careful and when breeding do look at these things and consider them. I did not use her in my program and felt she should be outcrossed as in my estimation her face had reached my mental limit for that extreme of type in the muzzle.

Hope any of this info can help you to understand that most arabian breeders who are breeding for an extremely beautiful horse are also really caring for the future health too.
An attack is an attack even if it comes with a caveat.
Photo
Nicole&Reannon
Feb 01 2012 07:23 PM
did it sound like I was attacking anyone? I hope not. Like I said, I saw a few photos of horses in Mustafa's breeding program that had some extreme features and was curious about them. I know what the features of arabians are, but there is a difference between a horse having a certain trait and the trait being extreme or over done. (not saying your horses or Mustafa's are over done, just that more is not always better) You can see it in many of the popular horse breeds, dog breeds, cat breeds etc. People will like a horse with a pronounced jibbah and then breeders will start breeding horses with more and more pronounced jibbahs until the feature is over exaggerated and unnatural. Trends like that are how we have many of today's dog breeds, and the health problems associated with them.

I'm not the type of person who will sit back and assume a breeder has the horse's best interest at heart, or that they do not.. I question, to find out what their goals, motivations and expectations are so I have a better understanding of what they want from their program. That way I know when someone is being a responsible breeder and is someone I could trust or would want to be involved with, or if someone is not. I don't know Mustafa, and was curious about his program and his horses. When I saw a few horses that raised some questions, and the trend of some more exaggerated features on the faces of some of his horses, I asked about them.

You asked me for my thoughts on your horses, and a gave them lol.

the jibbah wasn't my concern, although I definitely saw Mustafa's point that a larger jibbah will make the dish look more extreme, my concern was how narrow some of the horses looked just below the jowl, but I'm only looking at a few photos and photos can be deceiving which is why I was asking about them.
Nicole, at the same time if you ask questions, prepare to have them answered and to be educated where you maybe are lacking. I am lacking in lots of areas and believe me, we all have something to learn, you will find the best arabian breeders to be the most humble .....at least in my experience.

I did not mind your thoughts at all, the reason I asked is I was trying to get a feel for what part of Mustafa's horses faces you thought was too extreme. I put the photos of mine up as they are very different yet similar so thought maybe you'd explain more on what you meant by 'breathing issues' and such.

Just was trying to get more info from you on your thoughts, and while I did laugh, not really in a bad way, at you calling Dyno a miniature. Well, like a miniature. :) I am just not totally sure that bulge on a min is the same thing as on an arab, I really do need to ask my vet or someone.
Photo
Mustafa Sabankaya
Feb 01 2012 10:20 PM

Hi Mustafa, I am very glad that you took my question lightly, as I certainly meant no disrespect, and I agree this could be a very interesting discussion! Do you mind if I post photos of the horses in your program that I would be curious about their skull conformation?

You are definitely correct, that there is some what of an illusion when you have a horse with a very pronounced jibbah, and it's very possible that is all there is to it. It would be very interesting to see some sort of study on horse head shapes and if there is in fact any effect on things like breathing, teeth, brain capacity, vision etc. I have been looking at photos of horse skulls ( wish I could actually SEE them in person, much easier to compare and contrast), to see if there is anything about them that might suggest any of those issues are possible, or if horses with a shorter face and wider forehead have MORE wind capacity than those with a longer, narrower skull. The other thing I notice with arabian skulls vs other breeds is how far down the bone goes down the end of the nose.. on arabian skulls it seems to stop much shorter which would give their nostrils a more fleshy and expressive appearance than horses who have bone continuing lower.

I know you obviously care deeply about your horses, and I think this sort of thing is very interesting, and something that could be studies with a large herd like yours who have a wide variety of face shapes!

Nicole



Nicole, I see this thread of your opinion of some horses having too much dish in their nasal area seems to be going the wrong way.
At this time I would request that please do not use my name nor my horses' to make your points, as there are so many other horses for you to use in your argument, like Pianissima whose picture I included below.
Sincerely,
Mustafa

Posted Image
    • dowedoit likes this
Photo
Nicole&Reannon
Feb 02 2012 12:20 AM
Sorry Mustafa, I am not trying to make any points or any arguments. I was simply curious about a few of your horses. The photos are hard to judge a horse by which is why I was hoping for some discussion.

LOL Heather, I wasn't saying Dyna was a miniature...like I said, some of my comments are obviously being taken too literally, or at least not exactly how they were intended so there isn't much point in continuing because things are going the wrong way. Oh well, I tried LOL. I'm don't actually know if there are any true effects to extreme head features on various breeds which is why I was asking. I have heard people make claims about extreme dishes in arabs being associated with breathing issues and tooth issues which is why I was asking, I have no idea if they are true are false, but don't know until you ask! 8)
Photo
TripleHFarm
Feb 02 2012 05:04 AM
I have several extreme heads and have no breathing issue's

Sorry Mustafa, I am not trying to make any points or any arguments. I was simply curious about a few of your horses. The photos are hard to judge a horse by which is why I was hoping for some discussion.

LOL Heather, I wasn't saying Dyna was a miniature...like I said, some of my comments are obviously being taken too literally, or at least not exactly how they were intended so there isn't much point in continuing because things are going the wrong way. Oh well, I tried LOL. I'm don't actually know if there are any true effects to extreme head features on various breeds which is why I was asking. I have heard people make claims about extreme dishes in arabs being associated with breathing issues and tooth issues which is why I was asking, I have no idea if they are true are false, but don't know until you ask! 8)


And since Mustafa asked then we should make a discussion elsewhere, but in the end......I think that perhaps the best thing is if you have a question like this to make a thread as I don't think anyone would mind, and use horses that are either your own (as I was sure to do) or perhaps of deceased individuals etc. I hate using photos or examples that are not my own anymore as it can be hurtful to peoples feelings of their horses. If it is my horse, I only have my own feelings to contend with.
Good luck on your search for the knowledge.
    • dowedoit, Slide, Moe and 1 other like this

72 active user(s) (in the past 15 minutes)

53 guests, 3 anonymous users
  • Sugarglaze, Integrity Arabians, farmbabe, morganm, valleyhorsecenter, AccentoArabians, liz, murphy, cvm2002, Gogetter, Melanie Johnson, Brochi88, lvhrses, Airwalker, Kate'sbiggestfan, RobinBa


Skin Designed By Evanescence at IBSkin.com