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Horse Health


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Laheeb and I...


In addition to concentrating and perpetuating our Classic Polish program over the past 35+ years, we have made some strategic outcrosses that have been extremely successful. For example, in 1989 we bred our senior stallion, SPARK, to 22 select Fadjur daughters, and from that cross received such memorable horses as SS CLEOPATRA (two top 10s in Scottsdale 1990-1991, and sold to Europe in 1992 where she placed third in the Salon du Cheval World Cup), SS ALEXANDER (at least two top 10s in Scottsdale), SS ROZANNA, SS THUNDERBOLT, and others. This cross was so successful, SS CLEOPATRA and SS ALEXANDER helped SPARK win the Get of Sire class in Scottsdale 1990, which is significant when one considers Monogramm was also competing in that class. We made two other explosive outcrosses in the past few years, one to QR Excel in 2001 and one to Laheeb in 2007, which is the topic of this passage.

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Laheeb (Imperial Imdal x AK Latifa)

After researching the Arabian horse global marketplace, I decided that the horse named Laheeb was one of the more intriguing horses available; I say this not because of his looks, which is easy to do, but as a breeder, I say this because of his success in siring international winners both male and female.

After finding out that Laheeb was standing at Furioso Farms with my longtime friend, Raymond Mazzei, who does not need any introduction, I told him I was interested in Laheeb as an outcross on our Polish mares that were intensely linebred to Witraz. He said Laheeb was used in Poland very successfully and after he finished serving mares in the USA, he would be returning to Poland. After that, he would perhaps go to Egypt, and then possibly to Israel.

I figured it was time for me to visit my good old friend, Raymond, and look at Laheeb in person to see how I could best use him with our mares. I arrived to Furioso farms one sunny morning as the sun was just shining into the stalls, creating this ideal lighting for portraiture photo shooting as the horses hung out their heads to get a hold of that beautiful early California sun. I yelled out as I was walking around to see where Raymond might be. “Hey, where the ###### are you?” Just then, without seeing anyone, I heard a very sarcastic reply coming from the far end of the barn, “Where the ###### do you think I am? I am here in the stall working, unlike you!” I had not seen him in a long time, but knew he was okay and had not changed one bit, since everyone knows Raymand’s joking, sarcastic personality is one of the bonuses we get whenever we see him!

As I started to walk toward the sound, I was quickly glancing at all of the horses that had their heads out, as I said earlier, and just before the last stall in the isle way, I saw this extremely dry, small chiseled head that looked like a porcelain sculpture. I exclaimed, “Wow! Who is this gorgeous Egyptian mare with this extreme head?” Raymond’s answer was rather quick and firm, “That’s not a mare, that’s Laheeb!” That was my first sight of the horse, and, to this day, I remember it as though it were yesterday.

Later, when Raymond took Laheeb out of his stall, the horse made an instant, profound impression on me. I failed miserably at the old saying that “one is supposed to look at the horse from the hooves up.” I started on the wrong end when I instantly fell in love with the dryness and smallness of his head. While he did not have the biggest eyes, they were enormously expressive, wide and low set in the head. As with many Siglavi horses, he had a slight human eye, which added to his expression. Although many contemporary breeders and connoisseurs of the Arabian horse make a big deal out of this condition, it is done so erroneously without knowledge of the historical facts. According to Gladys Brown Edwards, the Bedouins valued the white around the eyes (human eyes). (By the way, another trait the Bedouins valued that modern breeders practically hate was the rye (side) tail carriage, which Laheeb did not have.) In addition, Laheeb had nearly perfect ears, large, paper-thin nostrils, and a perfectly square teacup muzzle with the deep mouth.

I eventually managed to pry myself away from his beautiful head and look at the rest of his body. I thought Laheeb represented combination of quality and elegance with an abundance of style. I think he was well over 15 hands tall. He had a good length and shape of neck, however, when compared to the Polish horse, I found his throatlatch to be slightly heavy. Like most Egyptian horses, his neck was set high, making it difficult to judge the prominence of his withers. Despite siring successful racehorses in Poland, his ribs did not appear well-sprung and his girth was not as deep as the Polish horses I am accustomed to seeing. While being tightly coupled, his haunches seemed lightly built, but nonetheless went nicely with the rest of the horse.

Next I looked at his legs. I had the impression that he had very clean legs with well defined tendons and sufficient flatness to its high quality dry, dense bone. I can go on for hours talking about what I saw in those few seconds, but that is not the purpose of this piece. In short, Laheeb had excellent legs with very pleasing proportions.

When Laheeb came out to be presented, he took my breath away with his Arabian type and presence—it was as though he took me back in time, as though I were watching an ancient painting come to life before my very eyes. As far as his movement is concerned, he was a very balanced mover with motion and lightness in both ends. I was happy to see this, because we refuse to compromise athletic ability in our breeding program that took over 30 years to fix. Just to close my impression of Laheeb, I watched him tease and breed mares with nothing more than a halter and leadline every time. He was obedient and very gentle while working in harmony with the very capable Raymond Mazzei—they made a wonderful team together.


After my visit with Raymond I made a commitment to breed a dozen or so mares to Laheeb, and when I got home started the painstaking process of deciding which mares to breed to this magnificent horse. There were many things to consider. Because the commute was 16 hours each way, I could not take the mares that had foals at their sides, nor could I take the mares that were going to have foals soon. After excluding the mares that were too old or crippled, the list got smaller and smaller. To make matters even more complicated, all of our mares were conceived, born, and raised in the pasture, with limited handling, and, well, you get the idea...

After considering all of the possibilities of which mares could be bred to Laheeb, we managed to select and breed around a dozen mares to him, resulting in seven pregnancies and five live foals. It is with all of the confidence in the world that I can say this was a successful endeavor, and I like all five horses for different reasons. Of course, because Laheeb is a homozygous grey, all of them are grey. And, like Laheeb, they all have exceptional temperaments, straight legs, plenty of motion, and presence. Four of them are of very good size, expected to mature at over 15.2H. Of the three colts, one is definitely a super star we named SS Laheebdar. He is out of one of the best, if not the best, black Spark daughter we have, named SS Raven (Spark x Lalechka by *Aladdinn out of *Ruta going back to Gazella II tail female line), also the dam of SS Velocity. We have already tried SS Laheebdar with certain mares as a test, and so far he looks as though he is going to earn himself a place in our program. The two fillies we got from Laheeb are also very pleasing (they are currently in foal to AJMAN MONISCIONE). They are slightly different in phenotype from one another but are very nice in their own way.

Here are some pictures of our Laheeb foals at various ages...


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SS Laheebdar Contemporary Pure Polish 2008 grey stallion (Laheeb x SS Raven by Spark). Shown here age 3 yrs. He is of the GAZELLA II tail female line.

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SS Laheebim Contemporary Pure Polish 2008 grey stallion (Laheeb x SS Clove by SS Alexander by Spark). Shown here age 6 mos. He is of the GAZELLA II tail female line.

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SS Sparks Laheeb Contemporary Pure Polish 2008 grey stallion (Laheeb x SS Crystal Spark by Spark). Shown here age 3 yrs. He is of the GAZELLA II tail female line.

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SS Certainlaheeb Contemporary Pure Polish 2008 grey mare (Laheeb x SS Certainlee by Spark). Shown here age 4 yrs. She is of the GAZELLA II tail female line.

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SS Laheeria Contemporary Pure Polish 2008 grey mare (Laheeb x SS Auroria by SS Miami Vice by Spark). Shown here age 4 mos. She is of the MLECHA tail female line.


So we ask you, now, what is your opinion about our outcross to Laheeb... what do you think? We invite your response.



Happy Holidays!!!

Mustafa


64 Comments

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ladycascabel
Dec 24 2011 01:17 PM
I admire your commitment to quality, type, and substance. These photos are wonderful. Thank you for sharing your goals and philosophy.

You stated that the Bedouins prized a "wry" tail carriage, and I wonder if anyone knows why that would be?
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Mustafa Sabankaya
Dec 24 2011 02:57 PM
First, thank you very much for your kind comments regarding our program and dedication to quality. As for the wry tail question, I wish I could have asked Gladys Brown Edwards about it in person. She simply stated it in one of her books, likely the book "The Arabian War Horse to Show Horse." I will look for the reference page and paragraph and post it as soon as I find it (sorry I did not include this reference in my original post).

By the way, I believe this to be the best book ever written on the Arabian horse and highly recommend it to everyone.

If anyone else knows this, perhaps they could comment while I'm looking...

Mustafa
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Alpha Arabians
Jan 25 2012 12:22 AM
I think you had better success elsewhere, Mustafa. Not my favorite cross with your mares...
I saw Laheeb at Furioso. He is beautiful, and Raymond is the ######. I like your horses, and I'm really impressed.

Sarah
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Mustafa Sabankaya
Jan 25 2012 09:23 PM
I found your comment interesting, since you never saw the Laheeb outcross in person, I presume you must have drawn your opinion from the pictures I used. Can you share your opinion which crosses you liked better.
Now I am intrigued too!!! (On Alpha Arabians comment)

Mustafa, I don't know but read your story with great interest and love how you went about describing the horse you were admiring at the time (Laheeb) I can't imagine valuing a wry tail because I was raised so strongly to be looking for a 'gaily carried' palm branch arched tail!!! But I don't doubt it as I bet the bedouins had far greater things to worry about than a tail being straight or not or perhaps they found it went with some other trait, would love to know the thinking there.

I think from the photos everything you said is true :)

I also appreciate your assessment of bone and understanding that arabian bone is very dense and not needing to be heavy but should be dry and flat.

As far as your program, wow, you have really bred some good horses. Spark was sure an amazing animal, is he still alive?

I think I know the feeling you got when you first saw Laheeb.....I got this years back when I saw an aged old man named Ferdine walk out of his stall. Was too young to use him or anything but the image is still there 30 years later.

Had fun reading your story. Keep sharing, its good to read some interesting points of view from a successful breeder.
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Alpha Arabians
Jan 28 2012 11:36 PM

I found your comment interesting, since you never saw the Laheeb outcross in person, I presume you must have drawn your opinion from the pictures I used. Can you share your opinion which crosses you liked better.



I like the Fadjur and Excel crosses better. More dryness, hair, along with better ears IMO. Also charisma with Fadjur. Spark fixed the Fadjur backs and you still had nice motors. The eye placement and head shape appears off on the Laheebs in the pics you posted and compared to the others they just dont appear to fit the look of the rest of your program. IMO The Laheebs don't have that Kuhailan type the other outcrosses offered which is why I think the others crossed better. As you know, I always wished Anna Maria could have been bred to Magic Dream for an outcross... I think he would have been cool to try on quite a few of your mares back in the day. I think the Ajman crosses (with that dash of Negatraz in the pedigree ;) lol) and your new colt if you bring him home will be interesting to see and a better choice than Laheeb as well for your mares. I also like the Velocity and "home bred/in bred" foals better than the Laheebs. Sorry M, you know me and my taste! :) Sending from my IPhone... Hope this typed out OK!
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Mustafa Sabankaya
Jan 29 2012 10:33 AM
Both Fadjur and Excel were phenotypically similar to Spark, therefore results did not vary much from other Spark horses.
Laheeb phenotypically was totally different, I agree in your observation they look different than the intended target. However I was hoping to get certain qualities from
Laheeb that I believed would be very useful in the next generations. Looking at the foals of Laheebdar, I can comfortably say that my predictions were right. I will present some of these results soon for everyone's evaluation. I believe that Laheeb's blood permanantly put a very noticeable dish to the profile of the head. I know some people will argue the point that the dish is an inhibiter of the air intake and so forth, and they would have a good scientific argument, but I have to admit I like looking at a small pretty head a lot more than a big plain one.
As far as the Laheeb's influence is concerned, I did not get big eyes even though they are not small, then again, Laheeb does not have an enormous eye himself, like you mentioned the width between the eyes got smaller and the ears were somewhat a small disappointment.
I totally disagree with you when you say that perhaps the other crosses had more dryness or attitude. The Laheeb horses that I got are extremely dry and well proportioned, including the size of the improved barrel, and they have excellent attitude. One extra benefit I also am enjoying is they are very trusting and totally obedient good minded horses.
Thanks for your continued interest of the program.
    • Lacinda likes this
I'm sorry I didn't have the mare for Laheeb while he was here. I remember his stud fee being pricey, so this must've been quite and investment for you. From what I saw of him and of these pictures of your horses, this was a really smart thing to do. I'm looking forward to seeing more. I was also a big fan of Imdal and was excited that Laheeb got introduced into Polish breeding, despite the controversy.

Sarah
You have beautiful horses and I have greatly enjoyed your posts. I would love to hear about your outcross to QR Excel as our stallion is by QR Excel.
Ann
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Mustafa Sabankaya
Jan 29 2012 01:26 PM

You have beautiful horses and I have greatly enjoyed your posts. I would love to hear about your outcross to QR Excel as our stallion is by QR Excel.
Ann



Dear Ann, Our experience has been very successful with QR Excel.
Even though I did not get what I was expecting, I got some very uniform quality horses with him. In all we have used one stallion named SS Atilgan By QR Excel, and seven mares. We bred the stallion back in to our program very successfully, I love the next generation a lot more. for example the Atilgan foal below,SS Royal At this is a granddaughter of QR Excel.




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SS Royal At 2008 Bay mare (SS Atilgan x SS Rojalista by SS Thunderbolt). Shown her at age 3. She is in foal to Ajman due for June , I can hardly wait!!





Here are some of the QR Excel mares who are also in foal to Ajman.

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SS Anacel 2002 Bay mare (QR Excel x SS Anabelle by Spark). Shown here age 9.


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SS Caranfil 2002 Bay mare ( QR Excel x SS Annabel by Spark)

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SS Excellebration 2002 black mare (QR Excel x SS Selebration by Spark).


If you have not yet , please go to Sabankaya select web page Under the Albums I have more information .

Mustafa
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Nicole&Reannon
Jan 29 2012 03:04 PM
Mustafa ~ I hope you don't take this the wrong way as it is not meant to be taken in a negative light, but I have been looking at a lot of the horses in your breeding program and notice quite a few of them have a substantial amount of narrowing in the nasal cavity after the jowl/cheek bone. It is obvious that you quite like the extreme profiles as some of your own mares and stallions have various extremes, and the stallions you are choosing for outcrosses are also known for being more extreme and so crossing them into your program will probably perpetuate it, which I assume is part of the goal? What I am curious about is, if you have ever had x rays done on any of your more extreme headed horses to make sure they don't have any issues within the nasal cavity, jaw bone or tooth formation? A lot of people would be weary of going to such extremes, and since many of your horses are heavily line bred, the trait would be expressed more and more each generation IF it was a dominant trait in sire and dam and being passed down. I'm wondering if there is, in your opinion, a head that is TOO extreme? Again, not meant to be an attack on your program as you have so many lovely horses and many are related to both of mine in many ways, so I definitely love many of your horses... but from a purely medical/health standpoint, I'm very curious about the skeletal structure of some of your horses and if you have done any studies to insure there are no genetic defects taking place in your more extreme horses that would be potentially compounded when bred.

All the best

Nicole
    • Mustafa Sabankaya likes this
Our stallion, Bellagio AF (QR Excel X Sanegors Lady D), has a great temperament. We have always wanted to know more about his breeding. We see foals from Sanegors Lady D, such as Bugatti, but none by QR Excel until you posted here. Thank you and I will check out your web page.
Ann
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Alpha Arabians
Jan 29 2012 06:59 PM
I'm glad you got personality from Laheeb and dishier faces. Interesting your comment on barrel. I always felt your horses were big barreled. My goodness SS Alarya that I had was all tank! I don't feel you needed barrel from Laheeb. If you got more barrel great, yet not lacking in your program before IMO. I still like the other crosses better and you posting the pics of Excel get in the posts above just confirms that more for me. Look at Anacel... what's not to like about her? She looks broody, dry, solid bodied, balanced, pretty, etc. Nice high tail set. I think we've both agreed in the past we don't like the pin that tail on the donkey look. She's the kind of mare that looks like you could take her quite a few different ways in the breeding shed and not be disappointed with the foals--or ride her in the mountains all day and not break down on you. I'll look forward to seeing the Laheeb grandkids as jury is still out for me.... :)
    • Mustafa Sabankaya likes this
I don't see anything that would warrant this type of question, so I'm curious as to what basis you have for asking it?

Mustafa ~ I hope you don't take this the wrong way as it is not meant to be taken in a negative light, but I have been looking at a lot of the horses in your breeding program and notice quite a few of them have a substantial amount of narrowing in the nasal cavity after the jowl/cheek bone. It is obvious that you quite like the extreme profiles as some of your own mares and stallions have various extremes, and the stallions you are choosing for outcrosses are also known for being more extreme and so crossing them into your program will probably perpetuate it, which I assume is part of the goal? What I am curious about is, if you have ever had x rays done on any of your more extreme headed horses to make sure they don't have any issues within the nasal cavity, jaw bone or tooth formation? A lot of people would be weary of going to such extremes, and since many of your horses are heavily line bred, the trait would be expressed more and more each generation IF it was a dominant trait in sire and dam and being passed down. I'm wondering if there is, in your opinion, a head that is TOO extreme? Again, not meant to be an attack on your program as you have so many lovely horses and many are related to both of mine in many ways, so I definitely love many of your horses... but from a purely medical/health standpoint, I'm very curious about the skeletal structure of some of your horses and if you have done any studies to insure there are no genetic defects taking place in your more extreme horses that would be potentially compounded when bred.

All the best

Nicole

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Mustafa Sabankaya
Jan 29 2012 10:56 PM

I'm glad you got personality from Laheeb and dishier faces. Interesting your comment on barrel. I always felt your horses were big barreled. My goodness SS Alarya that I had was all tank! I don't feel you needed barrel from Laheeb. If you got more barrel great, yet not lacking in your program before IMO. I still like the other crosses better and you posting the pics of Excel get in the posts above just confirms that more for me. Look at Anacel... what's not to like about her? She looks broody, dry, solid bodied, balanced, pretty, etc. Nice high tail set. I think we've both agreed in the past we don't like the pin that tail on the donkey look. She's the kind of mare that looks like you could take her quite a few different ways in the breeding shed and not be disappointed with the foals--or ride her in the mountains all day and not break down on you. I'll look forward to seeing the Laheeb grandkids as jury is still out for me.... :)



Thanks for the great comments about Anacel... we like her, too. I think you might have misunderstood what I meant when I said I got big barrels from the Laheeb cross, in addition to dryness and concave profile, and personality and so forth: I didn't mean to say that the big barrel came from Laheeb , as a matter of fact if you read the earlier part of the Laheeb and I post, you can see I openly mention the fact that he was shallow in the hart girth and did not have a well sprang rib cage. As you said in your reply, big barrel is one of the strengths of our program, coming from *Morwa (John's mare )
Incidentally, the more I look at the Laheeb progeny, the more I like them, and I don't think I need a jury to tell me that! You wait and see! I'll post the pictures of Laheebdar's foals soon.
By the way, I never insinuated at any time that I did not like my other out cross attempts, with other stallions, on the contrary I always said how happy I was with my Excel cross. Not to mention my love of the Fadjur outcross.
As we all know, what makes this horse breeding so exciting is to wonder how the next cross will work out, it is needless to say that I am very confidant that my Laheeb daughters will give me some of the best Ajman foals this year.

I want to take this conversation as an opportunity to say that, all these experimentative outcrosses have noting to do with the main Classical Pure polish part of our program. That program is very surely moving forward as we indulge our self’s with other explorations.
Just to show you an incredible example of that I will introduce this classical pure polish colt that is named SS Silver comet, he is by the homozygous bay SS Arkadash, Ana Maria’s full brother.











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8 SS Silver Comet is a very special colt, Looking more like his wold clas grand dam Celebaska, he i definitely stallion potential. He represents 40 years of strategic Sabankaya breeding,he is 2 x Spark, 4 x Comet, 6 x Bask, I2 x Amurath Sahib, and 27 times Kuhailan Haifi

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Alpha Arabians
Jan 29 2012 11:05 PM


When I said "what's not to like about her?" I did not mean to insinuate that you were saying you didn't like your other outcross attempts. I know you do! :)
It was a rhetorical question on my part, as if to say, my goodness how could anyone not like that mare?! She's fabulous!

(As for the Laheeb barrels... OK I admit, I didn't read your first loooong post! Lol! I just went straight to the pics and your comments after mine!)

Love the ears on Comet! :)
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Mustafa Sabankaya
Jan 30 2012 12:26 AM

I don't see anything that would warrant this type of question, so I'm curious as to what basis you have for asking it?



Dear Nicole,
I found your comment very stimulating, and definitely did not take it negatively as you were concern that I might. In fact this topic could lead us in to a very lengthy and deep discussions.
Yes I have to admit that I like very typy Arabian horses. However I also am very aware of extreme dish that could interfere with the air intake of the horse.
If I may, I would like to talk about Optical allusion that can misled the observer if the observer does not consider the following.
For example, one can look at a horse let’s say that, who has a 18 inch circumference in the nasal passage area, who’s head consist of a long face not much width between the eyes no signs of a jibbah and have a very flat jowls and pressed down nostrils who might appear to be normal,
If we take another horse with the 18 inches circumference in the nasal passage area who on the contrary has a very wide set eyes, big old jibbah, very short head, dressed with big flaring nostrils who also happened to have a very prominent jowls, more than likely this horse will appear to have a much dishier head than the first one described.
Our horses fit the description of the latter very much as they have very prominent jowls a lot of distance between the eyes definitely big bulging jibbah and so on.
I am very confidant that we sure do not have any horses with extreme dish to a point where we have to take x rays. Not yet anyway!!
Respectfully yours,
Mustafa
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Nicole&Reannon
Jan 30 2012 10:21 AM
Hi Mustafa, I am very glad that you took my question lightly, as I certainly meant no disrespect, and I agree this could be a very interesting discussion! Do you mind if I post photos of the horses in your program that I would be curious about their skull conformation?

You are definitely correct, that there is some what of an illusion when you have a horse with a very pronounced jibbah, and it's very possible that is all there is to it. It would be very interesting to see some sort of study on horse head shapes and if there is in fact any effect on things like breathing, teeth, brain capacity, vision etc. I have been looking at photos of horse skulls ( wish I could actually SEE them in person, much easier to compare and contrast), to see if there is anything about them that might suggest any of those issues are possible, or if horses with a shorter face and wider forehead have MORE wind capacity than those with a longer, narrower skull. The other thing I notice with arabian skulls vs other breeds is how far down the bone goes down the end of the nose.. on arabian skulls it seems to stop much shorter which would give their nostrils a more fleshy and expressive appearance than horses who have bone continuing lower.

I know you obviously care deeply about your horses, and I think this sort of thing is very interesting, and something that could be studies with a large herd like yours who have a wide variety of face shapes!

Nicole

Hi Mustafa, I am very glad that you took my question lightly, as I certainly meant no disrespect, and I agree this could be a very interesting discussion! Do you mind if I post photos of the horses in your program that I would be curious about their skull conformation?

You are definitely correct, that there is some what of an illusion when you have a horse with a very pronounced jibbah, and it's very possible that is all there is to it. It would be very interesting to see some sort of study on horse head shapes and if there is in fact any effect on things like breathing, teeth, brain capacity, vision etc. I have been looking at photos of horse skulls ( wish I could actually SEE them in person, much easier to compare and contrast), to see if there is anything about them that might suggest any of those issues are possible, or if horses with a shorter face and wider forehead have MORE wind capacity than those with a longer, narrower skull. The other thing I notice with arabian skulls vs other breeds is how far down the bone goes down the end of the nose.. on arabian skulls it seems to stop much shorter which would give their nostrils a more fleshy and expressive appearance than horses who have bone continuing lower.

I know you obviously care deeply about your horses, and I think this sort of thing is very interesting, and something that could be studies with a large herd like yours who have a wide variety of face shapes!

Nicole


This could get you started, if you can get your hands on the full article. It's older, but it's commonly referenced in more current studies... http://www.sciencedi...737080606813109 Intermandibular with varies in thoroughbreds, and a narrow width doesn't predicted racing performance other than it mirrors a horse's body type as it pertains to distance. Speed and distance have an inverse relationship, so shorter distance means faster horses generally. This is proven even in human athletes. So, a narrower horse might be better (as it doesn't tend to carry the muscle mass of a sprinter) at longer distance races (1-1.5 miles). If you read the study, there is no hard and fast rule about who and what is successful at anything. I see a lot of people at work, sticking their hands up between a horse's jaw bone to evaluate it as a predictor of success, so this principle has fascinated me for awhile.

If I were researching this head thing, I wouldn't start with Mustafa's heard. I would start with performance winners namely Arabian racehorses and endurance horses that are successful. If you did that, you would see a significant variety in shapes and sizes at which point, you can use that as a basis for comparison of more anomalous head shapes. You would have to put Mustafa's heard through significant testing and a lot of resources to determine anything really.

There's a lot of people who take measurements of Thoroughbreds at public auctions and compare those measurements to stakes winners. They don't have the greatest track record, but sometimes do okay. You could take measurements of skulls, and try to correlate that to the skulls of successful horses. No TB biomechanics firms measure skulls except for intermandibular width (which I mentioned above), probably because there isn't evidence to warrant that it matters. ALSO, we have veterinarians that evaluate airway function with endoscopic exams. Function of the epiglottis plays a huge role in high performance air intake. You can't see that by the shape of a horse's skull, which is why they use an endoscope. The company that I work with consigned a yearling Thoroughbred filly that was as exotic as the most exotic of Mustafa's Arabian horses. We didn't evaluate her skull shape, but if I remember correctly, she had a good endoscopic exam. Ironically, she was bred by a French former International Arabian judge and Arabian race horse breeder that converted to Thoroughbreds.

TMI maybe? But it adds to the interesting discussion, I hope.

Sarah
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Mustafa Sabankaya
Jan 30 2012 12:51 PM
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Dear Nicole, here is a pure Polish horse probably one of the best Arabian horse in the world,
Since you seem to be totally preoccupied,or rather obsess with the nasal passage way of the arabian sculls , I thought this horses scull might be more appropriate for your discussions.
Do you find his scull to have a possible problem with the narrowing of the air passage way, like you thought some of my horses might have, I am just curious?
Mustafa
As to function of the large forehead [jibbah] in Arabian horses, I recently read that it denotes having more [larger] sinus space, which make sense in that horses in an extremely hot environment would need to have more space in order to pull in air to keep their brains cool.

Years ago I spoke to Mr. Brahaim Hindi, a Lebanese rancher in New Mexio who raised pure desert-bred Arabian horses [His Arabian horses are the first 20 entries in the Arabian Stud Book of Lebanon]. Mr. Hindi told me that purebred Arabian horses could move their tails around easily, and would carry their tails to one side to aid in defecating while moving and to help cool their rear-ends, but their tails were not supposed to be kept to one side all the time.

P.S.: Mr. Sabankaya, I love the look of your horses!!

Lorna G. Kirby, PE
I want to start with a bit of romanticism
This is quoted, God knows from where but it is old...as I saved it long ago....

Centuries ago, somewhere in the inhospitable deserts of the Middle East, a breed of horse came
into being that would influence the equine world beyond all imagination: The Arabian. Due in part
to the religious significance attached to this breed, as well as the contribution it made to wealth
and security, the Arabian flourished in near isolation. Traditions of breeding and purity were
established to keep the breed �Aseel� or pure. The Bedouin valued pure in strain horses above all
others. The very nature of the breed, it's shape as well as it's color, was influenced by belief and
tradition. It was believed that the bulging forehead held the blessings of Allah. Therefore the
greater the �Jibbah� the greater the blessings carried by the horse. The great arching neck with a
high crest, the �Mitbah� was a sign of courage, while a gaily carried tail showed pride. These traits
were held in high esteem and selectively bred for. Each strain, when bred pure, developed
characteristics that could be recognized and identified. The five basic families of the breed, known
as �Al Khamsa�, include Kehilan, Seglawi, Abeyan, Hamdani and Hadban.


In response to what Nicole has asked I want to say that I have some experience with very extreme faces in that my mentor and friend Pete McNeil has been, for 60 years , not only focusing on a correct arabian horse body and legs, but also.....in a very dedicated fashion to putting an extremely typey head atop that body and legs!!

While his and Mustafa's horses look completely different (Pete's herd has been closed for 50 years though on a rare occasion, like Mustafa, he does an outcross) it is the same on the faces. Mustafa's have different ears and a whole different look as the bloodlines are so much different. Pete's horses are linebred Skowronek.

In any case.....from what I know of the people who have purchased his horses over the years one thing they excel at is a hard days work, despite their delicate dishy faces they have LARGE NOSTRILS, WIDE BREADTH BETWEEN THE BRANCHES OF THE JOWELS (ie windpipe space) and LARGE WIDE SET EYES (in my opinion they are much less spooky and very calm, perhaps they see very well) also they have, from my observations, a large brain area!!

I would like to share one of these faces here, a few of the same horse, yearling, very inbred to Skowronek and *Raffles so a completely and utterly different program (and they can use your closer set ears Mustafa which I want to keep an eye on for my future plans)
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Nicole, curious what you think of this young ones face, do you feel its too short? And also curious about your opinion of the well known stallion Mustafa posted.

And just trying to get a feel for what you are after in the face, which area you'd change ? I put the photo of a young one from my lines up to see if perhaps you are confusing the dryness of Mustafa's herd with being too extreme or ?

I use the colt above as he may have the shortest face on any horse I have ever witnessed, but maybe not the extreme dryness of Mustafa's herd or tippy tippy close set ears. And that dryness and those ears are something I would like someday :) (its like a recipe we probably need to add it!)

This all fascinates me!! I like to hear the varying views.

As to function of the large forehead [jibbah] in Arabian horses, I recently read that it denotes having more [larger] sinus space, which make sense in that horses in an extremely hot environment would need to have more space in order to pull in air to keep their brains cool.

Years ago I spoke to Mr. Brahaim Hindi, a Lebanese rancher in New Mexio who raised pure desert-bred Arabian horses [His Arabian horses are the first 20 entries in the Arabian Stud Book of Lebanon]. Mr. Hindi told me that purebred Arabian horses could move their tails around easily, and would carry their tails to one side to aid in defecating while moving and to help cool their rear-ends, but their tails were not supposed to be kept to one side all the time.

P.S.: Mr. Sabankaya, I love the look of your horses!!

Lorna G. Kirby, PE


Lorna, the part about the jibbah, I have read this before 'somewhere' in a study too :) Wish I could find out where.
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Mustafa Sabankaya
Jan 30 2012 01:44 PM

As to function of the large forehead [jibbah] in Arabian horses, I recently read that it denotes having more [larger] sinus space, which make sense in that horses in an extremely hot environment would need to have more space in order to pull in air to keep their brains cool.

Years ago I spoke to Mr. Brahaim Hindi, a Lebanese rancher in New Mexio who raised pure desert-bred Arabian horses [His Arabian horses are the first 20 entries in the Arabian Stud Book of Lebanon]. Mr. Hindi told me that purebred Arabian horses could move their tails around easily, and would carry their tails to one side to aid in defecating while moving and to help cool their rear-ends, but their tails were not supposed to be kept to one side all the time.

P.S.: Mr. Sabankaya, I love the look of your horses!!

Lorna G. Kirby, PE


Thank you very much Lorna, very good historical information, and thanks for the compliment for my horses
Mustafa
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Nicole&Reannon
Jan 30 2012 02:11 PM
I'm not sure why you would think i am obsessed with it, but I am simply curious about the various head shapes and if they have any sort of negative impact on the horse's health, as many people in the past have thought it might.

I certainly have no problem with people liking different types of heads, as long as they are fully functional. Everyone has different tastes and that is probably why the different strains developed with some very different "looks" to them. I do think that things like the Jibbah and the width between the eyes and also the length of the face can all produce different illusions and also will look different depending on the angle seen.

But when doing a lot of line breeding and focusing on things to some "extreme" we have to be careful not to get carried away or we end up with issues like various breeds of dogs have, traits which originally started out as obvious enough to tell breeds apart, and now are so extreme that they are causing health issues.

The stallion posted, definitely has a very "exotic" head, like some of Mustafa's horses, although not as shot and wedge shaped as some so maybe it isn't quite as obvious. I would definitely love to see x rays or skulls from horses like him, would be very interesting!

Lacinda, your young boy definitely has a very short face and wide eyes, and I noticed his Jibbah is much higher up between the eyes, sort of a similar profile to some of today's miniature horses and welsh ponies. Definitely a different overall shape, but still more "extreme" than usual.

I'm certainly not trying to pick on anyone's horses or say they are not healthy, or should have health problems, I was simply curious about the more extreme heads, and in breeding programs where a lot of heavy linebreeding is being done, you do end up with traits that will be very dominant and when breeding together horses with very exotic/extreme type faces, I begin to wonder when a head would be considered too extreme? When are the features considered too exaggerated?

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